Hi everyone, I'm Gloria Gray and welcome to the Women's Wealth Canada podcast.
My guest today, Antonia Medeiros, was born in London and traveled many places with her American father and French mother, eventually landing in France as a journalist. She decided to immigrate to Montreal where she met her husband and started a family.
The common thread always weaving through her life was stories.
Stories that people shared with her along the way. And she loved them so much, in fact, that she became a published author of fiction. You can find her French family saga, Les Crèvecœur, on Amazon. And her love of stories led to her current business as an executive coach and highly sought after speaker.
Antonia is a dear friend of mine and we've spent many a late night debating the challenges of the world and our part in it.
Her children call me the Bagel Lady. Because every time I come to stay with them, I bring bagels with me so we can sit down and have a quick breakfast together before they carry on with their busy lives.
Recently, we've been talking about gender equality in the workplace, and we realized that we both feel so passionate about the subject that we needed to share it with you. If you were sitting down with Antonia and me, we'd offer you a cup of herbal tea, but you may be driving or doing other things right now, so I'll just invite you to join us as we talk about The Financial Impact of Gender Equality with Antonia Medeiros.
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Below you will find the transcript for this podcast. We’ve edited a bit to make it more readable because as you know how a great conversation goes – it ebbs and flows and dances all over! I hope you enjoy!
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G:
You and I, we've had many discussions on this, that we feel strongly about empowering women. How we can best do that and how employers and society can do that. Do you think women alone will be able to accomplish economic gender equity in our world?
A:
No. The answer is no. No.
Because first of all, why would it be our job to do that? This is everybody's concern.
There's a lot of pressure that is being put on women to solve the problem of gender equity or equality, right? It is not our job to do that. It's everybody's job.
I always, go back to parenting. It would be like saying, to my daughter, “well, your job is to make sure you're going to be an empowered woman and that's it. Sort yourself out, darling, and just make sure you're out, you advocate for yourself.”
Yes, that is step one, but what about my two boys? Their job is also to help her in the same way. And her job is also to help them succeed. And we see that inside the family.
But these dynamics are things that we're going to see within their own household when they become adults and within the organizations that they work for.
It's everybody's responsibility. Inside corporations, we often rely on women to create the changes. Or we rely on HR to create changes.
These are leadership challenges. They're fundamental leadership challenges.
In the same way it's parents responsibilities to make sure that all children are empowered and have the same opportunities. It's everybody's concern and mission [to ensure gender equality is in place in the workplace.]
I think this is where we lose a lot of people and where there's a lot of miscommunication, because it's not just about what is right. It's also makes sense on so many other levels.
We know today that organizations that are working towards gender equality are often organizations that have greater economical success, that have healthier work environments, that have better productivity. And also that make economical decisions that are based on reality.
A perfect example is an organization that sell consumer goods. Who's the primary buyer in a family?
Women.
If you don't have women in your staff and in your organization to understand how people buy, you're missing a huge portion of your market. So those balances are essential on so many levels.
It's true in corporations. It's true in politics. It's true. We know that.
We need to talk more about the data, the real data of this, and the financial impact of not promoting gender equality in an organization.
We know today that so many women are leaving employers because there is no flexibility at work, right?
These are educated women that are essential pieces of the organization and they're going to leave. Because there's no flexibility. They feel there's no understanding. There's biases. There's lack of opportunities. What a mess! Can we really afford to see all of these women leave? Just because we can't have the difficult conversations?
So no, I don't think it's only women's job to build economic gender equality. There's a lot of pressure put on women to solve this problem. But it's everyone’s issue.
You know, it's funny. I was reading an article this morning reminding that, in the late ‘70s that women were only allowed to ask for a credit card and access a bank account with their husband's permission.
G:
That's right. They had to co-sign.
A:
That's not that long ago. Things take time, but things could go faster.
G:
You have sons and daughters. You work with leaders of companies. What are some simple ways to explain to them how they can create success by having gender equality or working towards it? What are some simple solutions that you tell your sons or tell these leaders on how they can make a difference and start empowering women?
A:
It's a different conversation if you're talking to business owners. Sometimes people hire me for completely something else. Maybe it’s efficiency at work or productivity issues. And then we evolve into those conversations.
At home, I think it's different. For me, at home, it's about sharing responsibilities. I like to always give the example of the household because, it's a little bit like a mini-company or a mini-organization, except that you're not going to get paid for your work, lol. And it's a lifetime job. it's very messy and there's a lot of emotions involved.
Being able to share tasks in your household is essential. We, all men and women, we all have a lot of biases around certain things? Thinking that certain house tasks are better done by women than they are by men just because of gender.
We know that's completely ridiculous. But things are a little bit more insidious than that. Sometimes you start doing something, and it comes from a good place, and then you end up stuck with that responsibility and it's really hard then to turn around to your partner, and say, “well now I'd like you to take the responsibility of this because I want to be doing something else.” It becomes a habit and it can be hard to change.
But what I try as a parent to do is, really for everybody, to share the same responsibilities. Now, some kids might be better than others at certain things, which is great, but that has nothing to do with gender. For example, your son might be vacuuming more efficiently than your daughter, or your daughter might be better at cutting the lawn or cleaning the car than, than your son. It doesn't matter, right?
These are all mundane tasks that you don't have to have a PhD to do this. When my kids leave home, I don't want them to depend on somebody else to do these things or assume that their partner, whoever that partner is, is going to do it for them because ultimately as parents, that's what we're demonstrating.
We're all guilty of certain biases when it comes to gender.
I worked very closely in the last two years with childcare educators. And, this is a whole conversation here on how essential these people are in women's success and in their careers.
In Canada, 98 percent of child-care educators are women. But there are men who want to be child care educators, as well. And that's not easy. It is not easy for men to enter that world. So, this is a very good example of biases existing the other way around.
Women also have biases against men entering in that world and taking care of their children. It requires sometimes adjustment. I have met absolutely extraordinary educators that were male throughout trainings and workshops that I've led.
It's so interesting because they bring something so unique. Sometimes it's a different way of caring. Or a different sense of humor. It's a different personality, and it's different types of activities. This is when you see the power of a team? And we need that.
This goes back to this gender equality conversations that we were having before, where women are asking for more flexibility at work. But I also think that the new generation of men are asking for that also. They want to be part of that. They want to be involved in that with their kids. And we're seeing more and more balance in within households when it comes to managing tasks. I think that is extremely important. Extremely important.
I attended a very interesting talk. It was filmed in the UK, and it was online. It was extremely interesting about companies, like Marks and Spencer for example, who really dedicated themselves to their mission to establish gender equality as much as possible within their organization.
It took them a little over 10 years - between 8 and 10 years - and they're still working at it. So it's possible. It's absolutely possible. But again, as I was saying before, it becomes a leadership decision. It all starts from the top.
Same thing in a household. Are you having conversations with your partner about workload at home, about the mental load that you're taking on, all the things that you have to think about, and maybe your partner doesn't (have to deal with) as much.
It works both ways because it benefits both ways.
G:
Do you think it's important for people to have these conversations before they get together with that partner and before they marry?
A:
That would be wonderful. But I don't know. I don't think you can always have the conversation. You can be really willing. We all have great intentions before we have kids and then when they come, it’s way harder than what we thought it was going to be, right?
So I think yes, it's important to have conversations. I think there are ways to see very quickly what kind of partner are you entering into a relationship with. I think there are certain fundamental things that you can see even before you have kids.
And then, some couples don't want to have kids. It doesn't mean that there's not workload to share for sure. It doesn't mean that their work is not going to be impacted one way or the other by all the other responsibilities.
We're talking about caregiving. Caregiving is not just with children. I mean, how many people are taking care of aging parents? Or, sometimes have a spouse that is disabled.
Wen you, when you have a career and when you have work responsibilities, it's very difficult - very lonely and very difficult.
So I think that is the fundamental piece of everything, having those conversations. Yes, before you marry, you can have conversations with your partner for sure. I think that will tick some boxes, but actions speak louder than words, right?
G:
What happens when women become mothers? Does it change things, do you think?
A:
It Changes Everything.
This is for me one of the favorite parts of my job. This is a topic that I find absolutely fascinating.
And for me in a woman's life, it's really one of those stages that is absolutely transformative. Everything changes, for the best and for the worst also.
There is a massive identity shift, which is really the part that I'm most interested in. And that I see in my practice all the time.
Sometimes it’s years after they've had those children, where really there is a shift. It's been such a whirlwind sometimes one child after the other. And then all of a sudden, at one point, they realize. “I've changed. There's a part of me that I have left behind. There's a part of me that I need to grieve, that I will never have back.”
There's a lot of boldness and bravery that comes with motherhood that is extraordinary.
But it's a bag of mixed feelings sometimes. I think one of the hardest things is being a mother. It is not easy for sure, especially if you don't always have the support or if you are the one doing everything at home.
The biggest disappointment for women is the reality of going back to work after becoming a parent.
They see the missed opportunities, the biases, the feeling that you're a little bit on a sideline and that you have to choose. You lose motivation at work because you can't keep up with everything that you have to do - being there for your kids, picking them up early, especially the first few years when your kids are sick all the time.
It is perfectly normal. But the lack of support within corporations, I think is quite dreadful. More often than not your relationship with your work and your career shifts. Your salary is affected.
And even if you do not have children, there's a thing called the motherhood penalty, which affects mothers, but also affects women who do not have children and decide not to have children.
There are biases against women between a certain age if they apply for a job. The employer might think, “Oh well, she is in an age group where, she might potentially have children”, even if this woman has no intention of having women. And that can determine outcomes.
So all women end up having a penalty against them one way or the other because of all of that. This goes back to the conversation we were having about the importance of shifting the culture around caregiving. Once we start doing that, I think we'll do massive jumps towards better gender equality and equity.
I believe there are things in my life I would never have been able to do had I not become a mother. I think it gave me bravery.
I think also, (and I often laugh about this with my clients - as we get older motherhood does it and perimenopause and menopause does it also), our tolerance for BS becomes extremely low. After motherhood, you just can't deal with BS. And then perimenopause and menopause is the icing on the cake where you're like, “okay. I'm done with all of this. It's my time.”
G:
I was talking with a young man who's probably in his 30s and he said, “women over 50 terrify me.” And I said, “why is that?” And he said, “I don't know why.” And I said, “you know what? It's just that they just aren't going to take it anymore. They would have. They might have appeased you in the early days. But they're just not going to do it anymore. Thank you very much.”
A:
No. And it's interesting because a lot of women hire me during those times.
Because they're not going to take it anymore. And they don't know what to do with that. They're like, “I need to set boundaries. I need to start saying NO. How do I do that? What's going to happen?”
It's a chance and an opportunity to redefine yourself. You're shedding something you no longer need. You let go of that and you finally embrace the truth - the next chapter of your life where you can really feel free to do what you want. You're free to have the relationships that you want. You're free to say, no. You are free not to hang out with anybody you don't want to hang out with.
This is all very empowering and motherhood is too. I wish for more alliance again, as we were talking about, with men around that. I think for a partner, it's also an awesome experience to see that partner being more. It can be scary for certain people, but at the same time, how amazing and liberating. It’s amazing being able to understand these fascinating phases of women's life.
All of this this goes back to your first question, which was, “what can we do? What can we really do to create gender equality?” Well, maybe gender equality is just also being able to understand each other, and be curious about each other. To understand we have different phases, both men and women have different phases in their life.
They have a different sense of time. They have different ways of doing things. And this should bring us together - our differences.
We all talk about the importance of being inclusive. Well, inclusive starts in very simple things. Just being able to look at the person in front of you, be curious about them without judgment and say, “I didn't know this. That's interesting. That makes me uncomfortable. I find that funny.” Or to ask “why”, “how”, to ask questions.
G:
Squatch and I just went through our 26th wedding anniversary, and we still will say surprising things and we still learn things about each other. He continues to surprise me and we continue to evolve. Luckily we've evolved in a way that at least is going in the same general direction.
Do you think that can sometimes happen though, that the directions go in different ways?
A:
Absolutely. We changed so much. Remember when you were 20, Glory?
G:
I barely recognize that woman now.
A:
Right? I know. So, imagine now, it's hard to evolve as a partner, with your partner.
It takes a lot of work to evolve together. So congratulations to you!
Because being able to be curious about each other and navigate conflict in a different way - all that is so essential.
And, if your partner is not good for you anymore, well, that's okay too. It's okay to change your mind.
It's okay. Because we change so much. What are the odds? I mean, some people believe that we're not meant to be with the same partner all our life, right?
G:
That's right. I think Margaret Mead said something about that. We actually need, as women, three different partners in our lifetime.
A:
Yes. What an interesting idea.
When I have an argument with my husband, I think about that too. But the difference is that I can laugh about it with him. I can say, “have you heard the theory about different partners?” I am able to laugh with him about it and then we giggle and then we move on, right?
The thing is today, we're so lucky to have the choice. We can choose our partner. There are countries where that’s not possible. It's still not possible to this day.
We can decide to leave. We can decide to stay. Freedom of choice is incredible. We can choose to have children, not to have children.
Sometimes, it's nice to remember that. That's pretty amazing. It's pretty awesome.
It's okay that we have these choices. It's okay to change. We have these choices. We worked hard for them. We shouldn't take them for granted, right? There are countries where it's like choices are being removed, although we thought it was a given.
But we still, let's celebrate and embrace the fact that we have those choices as women and as men.
G:
Speaking again with from a North American point of view, what do you think is missing in women's definition of success?
A:
That's an interesting question. I think maybe we're not asking ourselves the right questions.
When it comes to our definition of success - your definition of success at 20 might not be the same as it is when you're 50. And that's okay too. What works for you in your first decade might not the following one. And that's absolutely normal.
I think the first thing when it comes to success is ask yourself the right questions. Take the time to redefine your measure of success. And don't base your measure of success on external validation or on what works for somebody else.
Society tells us that having materialistic things is a sign of success - having a sports car or having a whatever, right? Does this work for you? Is this your measure of success? If you want to be a stay at home mother, then that's your measure of success. Go for it! 10 years in - you want to change your mind? No problem. Ask yourself, “What do you want now?” Allow yourself to be flexible, allow yourself to change your mind and do not base your success on somebody else's measure of success.
I still see in many of my clients who are in their forties and fifties, who still tell me that they realize that they based their success, their career, and their measure of success, on what their parents wanted for them and what their father wanted for them or what their mother wanted for them. Some women are always going back to that and feeling or coming up short because they always feel that they're not good enough.
Being able to just shift that and say, “That was somebody else's dream for me. That's not what I want. I don't want to be a lawyer. I want to be a plumber.” I think that's powerful.
Why do you want that dream? These are questions that we ask during coaching sessions, which are really important questions.
- Why do I want this?
- Why do I really want this?
- What am I looking to get and why do I want to get that?
- What is it going to give me?
G:
What do you think about women's relationship with money. Has that changed? What do you see when you talk about that piece with your clients?
A:
I see a lot of women having very challenging relationships with money, for all sorts of different reasons.
The first one is because we associate, more often than not, money as something that is masculine. Historically and sociologically, men were the major breadwinners, for a very, very long time. So, it was this kind of cliche thing where, men brought in the money and women were good with nurturing and taking care of kids.
Well, today, it's completely different, but we haven't exactly done the shift, the way we should.
I collaborated for a workshop with some women who were commercial bankers, and they were explaining to me, from a big bank here in Canada, how women business owners are very reluctant to asking for a credit line. They think that as a woman, they're never going to get it. So, they don't even bother in small businesses. What does that tell you? The stats are like quite surprising. I fell off my chair when they said that.
It just goes to prove that it is complicated. It comes from how you were brought up. We know that more often than not, (although it is changing in the last generation) with our parents, the father was often the one who was the initiator of conversations around money with the daughters. Women who had a good relationship to money or who mastered their finances, were often women who had been taught by their father on how to manage their finances.
This is changing as women are working. In your own practice, you must see this firsthand. Women coming to you saying, “I'm divorced and I have no idea what my finances are. I don't know the numbers. I don't know how this works. I don't know.”
Education is essential. Being able to talk about money and changing your relationship to money is key.
And the one thing that I say all the time to women is to remember that money is feminine.
G:
That's interesting. Tell me more about that.
A:
Well, it's fertile. It reproduces itself. Right? And women often, when it comes to money, women like to get money also to give back because sometimes it's for their children, for their families. We have to remember that we like to give back. We like to share. We're very communal creatures and money is a tool for that. Money is a tool of empowerment. Money is a tool of independence, right? So that fertility and abundance is very feminine. I always hope that this is something that's going to help them shift their relationship to money. Sometimes there's shame in talking about money. We attach a lot of emotions to money. Money is just a tool.
G:
To something perhaps greater than ourselves.
A:
Absolutely. Remember that money, when you accumulate money, when you're wise about your money, this is a possibility to give back to others.
G:
I think often we might get stuck as women and thinking that, well, if I'm wealthy, if I have a lot of money, then I'm greedy. I'm selfish. And you're saying the opposite.
A:
If you have more money, you might be able to, buy a nice trip to your parents. You might be able to pay for education for your children. You might be able to buy yourself an apartment and be free of rent so when you retire, you have something of your own.
That feminine, nurturing, fertile aspect of money is worth remembering. Do you agree?
G:
I do. I absolutely agree.
And I love, I love to just hear somebody else say it, other than myself preaching into the wind.
A:
Education is fundamental. I just want to share a little anecdote, about my own daughter who, just like her mother struggled immensely with math at school. She had to take a little bit of a detour and take Workplace Math. This is the math that is taught to people who go in the trades. And during this math class that she did, she learned all about how to manage your money, how to pay taxes, how to do investments, how to do like all these things. And I'm thinking, hold on a second. Every single student should go through this class.
Compulsory. We all need to know how to do this. We all need to know how to manage our finances and we need to do it when we're 15, 16, 17, and we should be able to go back to it as we're in our 20s, as we want to get a mortgage, as we want to understand credit, as we want to understand. These are essential conversations we need to have and be educated on, men or women, doesn't matter.
G:
What are the, some of the things that she got out of that?
A:
Oh, well, she learned a lot and we were having really interesting conversations. My husband, he has conversations about finances with her, which I love.
So now we're managing her money differently.
We're saving. We are talking about “how much is your play money, how much is your investment money, what do you want to do with that money? I'm going to put a bit on top of your savings so that this takes you further, but you're not allowed to use it for this.”
All of these things for her and, with all of my kids, are super important. You see it right from the start. When kids are little, they have like pocket money. I have three kids and they're all very different.
We’ve got the spender - the one who walks, with the money box, in the candy lane. And it's like, how much can I buy with my money? There's nothing left. It's all candy stuff.
And then the one that saves and saves and never touches his money.
And then the other one who's trying to understand, how I can get more money by doing less.
That's the theme of our conversation. Education is key. Education is key all throughout our life. Not just when we're young. Education is empowerment. It is freedom and it is independence. It's all starts there. What do you think?
G:
It's, it's kind of been my raison d'être, the reason for this podcast, the reason for my blog. Just to get the message out there and start these conversations and educate women so that they can educate the next generation and themselves and these communities so our community, our world can be better.
A:
Absolutely.
I think sometimes we forget this might be very obvious for certain people, but not for others. There are women who get to 30 or 40 and who have no idea how to manage their money. Who have no idea what goes in and out. You're right. And it's not just about us. It's about the next generation too.
G:
What are you excited about this year?
A:
Oh, I'm very excited about my trip to Kenya. It’s a journey itself. It's going to be hard as I’m walking 300k, walking for 10 days through landscape and villages. It’s a unique trip.
It’s in partnership with Lalmba Canada. I'll share the link, if you want, if people are curious and interested.
https://www.lalmba.ca/tembea-na-mimi-walk-with-me
I am as a walker and as part of the organization, I'm raising money and looking for people to donate.
One year of schooling is $400. Which is nothing. How many Starbucks is that in your life? And that's one year of education for someone in the world. You and I talk about this all the time, the importance of education, for women and for everyone.
These young girls, once they have a trade, once they know how to do something, the economical, repercussion of that is huge.
An educated woman will take everybody far. Not just herself, everybody.
I mean, you talk about financial education to everyone through the podcast and through the work you do. I love to share your story, which I think is just so wonderful. Seeing people come by to your office, seeing women who have no idea, who've never taken care of finances, come to your office. And saying, I need help and building a business on that to be able to support them, right?
G:
It's a joy and a privilege, for sure.
A:
Exactly. So I'm super excited about that.
I'm working on a side project. I don't know where it's going to go, but it's around, women in trades and construction, which remains an industry where it's extremely male dominated and there's a lot of biases, there's a lot of psychological safety challenges still, and therefore a very exciting field for me.
I'm trying to see how I can combine my skill sets and my passion to try to make a difference, in that world. And I've met some really interesting women in the trades that are, just so powerful, dedicated, passionate women. And also passionate men, who want to change things and who are trying to make a difference, for women.
I don't know where it's going to go. It's still ongoing and I'm excited about that. There's a part of me that always thinks, what if, the trades and construction industry became a model on how to bring in, retain, and empower gender alliance, in the workplace.
But that's me with my natural optimism and big picture girl, right?
It's still at an early stage, but, I'd love to be able to do something. And I'm excited. I'm always excited about all the new clients I'm going to meet - all these wonderful people that are going to come to me and with whom I'm going to have wonderful discussions. That's what I love so much about what I do. I hope I give back and help others, but I am also so inspired by so many of you and by those people, who are brave, who want to change, who want more for themselves, who want more joy, more happiness, more love, and freedom in their lives. And I think that's always something to admire and enjoy.
G:
And you always inspire me whenever we talk.
A:
We can talk for hours, Glory. That's what I love.
G:
We can talk for hours. It's great to have an audience kind of sitting in on the conversation. We always have many conversations.
A: Yes, we do.
G:
Thanks so much for being on the Women's Wealth Canada podcast today.
A:
Thank you so much for inviting me. I am so grateful for this conversation and all the ones we've had all this time. Thank you for your friendship.