Women's Wealth Canada
Women's Wealth Canada
The REAL questions you should ask yourself before retiring - with Stefa Katamay
Are you at a crossroads and wondering what’s next for you? Well, you’re in luck, because Certified Retirement Options™ Coach, Stefa Katamay, is my special guest today. Join us as we tackle the REAL questions you should ask yourself before retiring.
- Why life transitions like retirement should be viewed in five year chunks of time
- Why do we wait until we’re in our sixties before we seem to hit our stride? What was happening before then?
- FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) and the "new retirement"
- Top concerns for people in retirement
Resources in this episode:
Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans
Successful Aging by Daniel Levitin
Connect with guest Stefa Katamay
Website: NextinLife.ca
Stefa on LinkedIn
Instagram: @next.in.life
Hosted by Glory Gray, BSc Finance, MFA
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WWC Ep 12: The REAL questions you should ask yourself before retiring - with Stefa Katamay 32:25 long
[Teaser]
Stefa Katamay 00:02
Because busy doesn't mean that you're doing what you're meant to be doing. And I think this building on strengths, building on what's important to you, that's when you see people just light up.
[Intro Music]
Glory Gray 00:28
Welcome to Women's Wealth Canada, I'm Glory Gray.
When my friend Stepha retired she was burned out and ready to jump at the first shiny thing that came along. In her case, it was learning to sail offshore. Yes, it was exciting but something was niggling away inside. At times she was lonely, or just bored. So she set out on a journey of self discovery. This journey revealed she was living a life inconsistent with her authentic self.
Stefa delved deeper into her values and repurposed her Master of Health Science and her Royal Roads University Executive Coach Training and became a certified retirement options coach, supporting clients to explore and plan what they will do next in life.
Can you relate to Stefa's story? Are you at a crossroads and wondering what's next for you? Well, you're in luck because Stefa, Stefa Katamay that is, is my special guest today. Grab a hot or cold beverage and join us as we tackle the real questions you should ask yourself before retiring.
Glory Gray: Tell me more about your thoughts on the idea that retirement should be viewed in five year chunks of time.
Stefa Katamay 01:51
I was inspired by the work of Bill Burnett and Dave Evans, they wrote a book called Designing Your Life. It was originally written for people just graduating from university. They've subsequently written other books on designing your life at different stages, but they talk about thinking through what you want to do, ask the right people all the questions and do your research. They propose choosing up to three options and then just pick one, and stick with it for three to five years. If it sticks, great, you can carry on, but if it doesn't stick or you've learned things and you think “oh, I want to tweak this,” you know you've already looked at some other options, or you've given this one enough of a chance that you can refocus. And I saw that timeframe work for myself. I went sailing, for instance, for four years, and at the four year mark, I kind of went, “I've done the learning and growing in the kind of way that I want to. And something's missing.” And it was okay to shift gears because I heart-and-souled it, learned tons, mainly about myself, and then shifted to something else. I was just talking to a client today, who also said, “You know, I can barely remember three years ago.” So, thinking through three years ahead seems like a right, just about the right amount of time when things may change because of illness, they may change because of injury. These are just things that happen more as we get older. Even for young retirees, that seems like a doable timeframe.
Glory Gray 03:42
I see the same thing. I tend to talk to clients in five years segments and I think it's because, as you said, often it's because either your spouse or you have a health event, which is all the more reason why we should do all we can to stay healthy people in retirement. I've seen them move locations and move homes every five years or so. I like the idea that you've taken that even further and really delving into what that means for your clients.
I've heard you talk about authenticity. What does it mean to be authentic? Does it mean being unfiltered? How do you know when you're not being your authentic self?
Stefa Katamay 04:28
Yeah, and I think that's a good starting place. How do you know when you're not being authentic? To me, the authentic you would be somebody who acts in a manner that's consistent with your values, consistent with what's important to you, builds on your strengths, has a sense of purpose and works in alignment with our sense of purpose. Even without the purpose being figured out, that alignment with what's important to you or what you're good at, you feel "on," right? Like in the workplace, you feel "on." Sure, work can be hard but sometimes we have those sweet moments of bliss.
But when you're misaligned, you're grumpy. Your body may hurt, there's just this...things feel wrong. Like work for instance, in particular, you just might feel like, you know, hard is hard but work doesn't have to be hard all the time. And yet that authentic person...and I see this in retirement too, people going, “Oh, I'm so busy.” But something's still missing so they're, they're not aligning with what they're doing, with necessarily what's important to them. Because being busy doesn't mean that you're doing what you're meant to be doing. And I think this building on strengths, building on what's important to you, that's when you see people just light up.
You asked about what is being unfiltered. I've seen this too, people who say, "I'm just telling you how it is, but sometimes it's just mean, you know? Being authentic is really about... It's self knowledge, it's not about imposing yourself on other people, it's knowing who you are and how to show up in the world. Everybody benefits.
Glory Gray 06:16
So why do we wait? You were talking about doing what feels good to you, doing what is aligned to your values in retirement. Why do we wait until we're in our 60s before we seem to hit our stride. What was happening before then?
Stefa Katamay 06:31
I think there are two threads to that. One piece is about...some people enter the work world and they know what they're meant to do. They were put on this earth for a mission and they were almost born knowing. Lucky them is all I can say. There are other people, they've received good guidance, good support. And eventually, also move into those areas that they can be authentic. They align with their strengths to keep building and growing.
Then, I'm going to hazard a guess that more of us who are in our 60s, for instance, we got the message when we were in high school or entering university, for women in particular, "well you should go into sciences” or “you should do this because the world is expanding, you no longer have to be a nurse or a teacher." So, people did all of those things, and perhaps found joy, perhaps built on their strengths, but it was never kind of "the thing." And again, we're still a little bit generational where people kind of stuck with things for a long time. They didn't ask those questions early enough.
So, overall, you have a generation of people who might have put something of themselves aside and now they're kind of like "Phew!" I can move on and really hone in on and capitalize on what it is I think I should be doing.
The other piece is, for women in particular, who gave up periods in their career for childcare. Things were different. There weren't necessarily long maternity leaves. Many of us have given up time for elder care, caring for elderly parents. And I think all of those things, those interruptions, like, now we feel like we have the time to really go at it. So people are hitting their stride later, in a way because there are too many other demands and other times of life, to really do that.
So, I think it's the context in which we all went through as young adults, and some of that was opportunity, and it's just so exciting to see people go: "Yeah that was then. It was good. But, now, now I'm realizing more what's important to me, I'm learning more what my skills are, or I see what my skills were but they weren't really capitalized on in my career, but now I can do that, or now I see how I can do that, I think some of it is the freedom that comes with a bit more time to think and redirect.
Glory Gray 09:04
Do you think that women even more so, find their authentic self in these later years, and perhaps are discovering that more than when they were younger?
Stefa Katamay 09:16
I think so, because, again, just for whatever this cohort is, let's call it baby boomers, I would be at the end of the baby boomers, we didn't have a lot of role models of women working full time outside of the home. Many of us still got the message: “You should be a wife, you should be a mother. How can you go to work and leave your children at home,” right? So I think we're kind of being torn more in two different directions, even if we pursued work in the best way possible. So I think that we just, well, there's this whole piece about rediscovering yourself right? It's not giving up that you're a mother, but it's letting go of some of those responsibilities that you had when you had younger children. I see in my female clients this rediscovering. Rediscovering of passions, rediscovering some sort of core element that never went away, it just kind of went on holiday.
Glory Gray 10:23
So, you have mentioned retirement a couple of times. What is the place of work in retirement? If you decide, “You know what, I'm retired but yet I'm still working.” Are you actually retired in that case?
Stefa Katamay 10:38
There was a survey done, a Canadian Community Health Survey, and it looked at the age of retirement, and then whether or not people went back to work. And the one stat that I think is stunning is the younger the people retired...more people who retired young returned to work. They didn't necessarily return to work for money--although some did-- around 50% return to work, because they like working. They like being active. So these are people who are retired, who have returned to work. Some people who returned to work, they went for financial reasons, sorry, another 50%. Around 30%, well, an interesting work opportunity came along, so they went back to work. 30% didn't like retirement. And then, 25% wanted a challenge. So it really begs the question, especially now, we're living so much longer. And yet, we read in the papers and people are talking about retiring younger and younger, you know, retiring in their 50s. My question is: "What do you do?" and more importantly, we need you. We need people. Really, give as long as you can, and, in whatever way that you can whatever your strengths are. We need people to be contributing.
At the moment I'm working with a number of people who are in their 50s they're all retired, and they're all creating businesses, and moving on and having another career because they don't see themselves as retired people, which also is a challenge at this time of life. Again, we have increasing role models of people who are living very vibrant, active lives well into their 70s and 80s but, this is a new time, you know? People talk about “the new retirement'' but this is just a new moment in time. We have so many older healthy people role modeling for the rest of us what our later years can look like. And if you go to psychologist Daniel Levitin and his book, "Successful Aging," when he is asked, what age should we retire, he says “never,” because work in which you're really engaged is so good for our health.
Glory Gray 12:59
There's this movement among people who are in their 20s and 30s that I've been seeing retiring early. It's called FIRE. Do you think that they're going to be experiencing this sudden “aha” moment, maybe after their children after they're done raising their children, where they're saying, “now what?”
Stefa Katamay 13:19
Well, I wonder. And this "financial independence retire early," I've been doing a bit of reading about it too and many people who do say, let's call it “retire” in their 20s or 30s...they haven't totally given up getting an income of some sort, it's just perhaps passive income in some way, or they don't perceive it to be work. And there's also some literature out there that looks at maybe our whole work structure needs to be juggled around a bit so that you have more time in your early years to take breaks for learning, work less, learn more, perhaps do that adventuring that you can do when you're able bodied, and then as you learn more you work more, because you have work to contribute, you have more perspective, and more under your belt, which is just an interesting concept to play with.
Glory Gray 14:18
And that's a good point they're not actually really retired, they're just finding a more flexible way of bringing in income. Maybe several streams with one active stream, one passive stream and then having more of the freedom that they crave to be with their families. So maybe, like you're saying, it's just a different way of working than we had 50 years ago.
Stefa Katamay 14:39
Yes, and all influenced by the options that we have now, and I think our longevity, like, it's just not the same as it used to be, people are living a lot longer.
Glory Gray 14:51
And I love that now, in a partnership where there's a male and a female, that the males are given just as much freedom to stay home with the kids as the females are in terms of how they're supported and parental leave, and society's views on the man staying home as opposed to the woman, which is completely different than when we were kids.
Stefa Katamay 15:14
Yeah, and the options. Also, I know from my children's father, he asked to work part time, and was declined, because in that company, men in particular, didn't work part time. So he quit to be home with our daughters and subsequently that company came back with a part time offer.
Glory Gray 15:36
He was ahead of his time though.
Stefa Katamay 15:38
He was way ahead of his time. Yeah, that would have been around 1990.
Glory Gray 15:43
So, what are you seeing as a top concern among people who are looking ahead to this...we'll say “retirement,” although, as we're talking, we may be talking about “rewirement'' rather than “retirement,” but what are you seeing as a top concern?
Stefa Katamay 15:59
It depends if you're talking about couples or you're talking... I mainly work with women, couples or women, and among couples I was quite surprised to see that the primary concern was actually having different needs. So people are already looking ahead, and anticipating different wants, wanting to do different things, wanting to achieve different kinds of things in retirement than one another. And so how do you support one another to do that? I think that's really interesting. And the other thing that comes up is this really looking forward to freedom, and being concerned about purpose. Now, I think they go together. But not everybody sees them going together. Because I'm of the opinion, when you have a sense of purpose, it is freeing, you can say "no" to a whole bunch of stuff, and focus on the things that are important for you. The top thing that women are coming to me for is just reconnecting with themselves, having the confidence to move forward with the dream they have. These are all un-partnered women. So, there's no partner of any sort in the picture, so they might have big dreams, but it's that...okay, I have this big dream, help me land again on the confidence I had when I created the big dream. Now it's about to happen and I'm afraid. It's kind of a re-grounding. So, again this rediscovering yourself, re-grounding. And then the other issue that comes up is where am I going to live? Again, coming from un-partnered women who now have options, and trying to find that balance of what community can support me in terms of the activities I like to do? Where can I meet people who like the activities I like to do and the activities that I want to do? Generally, it's “where can I still fly to see the family but not necessarily be with the family?” And, there too, the dilemma is often not around, like which town or city am I going to pick, because they have a list. It's more getting underneath what's stopping them from making that decision. What other things are getting in the way, that pull to family. So it's really about uncovering some beliefs or expectations or the shifts that they should be doing, the shifts that they believe they should be doing. And from there, moving forward to "Yes, this is where I want to go."
Glory Gray 18:38
That's very true, again, there’s sometimes the societal pressures to be a grandparent as well. "What do you mean you want to move away from your children, and go achieve your own dreams? Don't want to be close to your grandchildren?” And that again, I think we're seeing a change in society's views. Are you seeing that as well?
Stefa Katamay 19:03
Yes, I mean, I can speak to that personally. I just had a new grandchild in the picture. I do think it appears people want to be supportive but actually recognize that society has changed. People's children have all moved away. People have become accustomed to not having a parent in the same way or having parents that are in the same community. So, to suddenly have somebody in the same community isn't necessarily comforting. It might be kind of squashing, and among all the grandparents that I know, very few in fact live in the same community as any of their grandchildren, and everybody seems to be just fine with that.
Glory Gray 19:48
That's freeing. It makes it easier for those clients that you're working with who are discovering those dreams. Perhaps they still have to work through those pressures, but if they choose not to live near them, then they're not an odd person out as we might have been in the old days.
Stefa Katamay 20:06
Exactly. Yeah, I think getting older now is a more freeing experience than it used to be. And, you know, look at how long we're living. Say you started working when you were 25, If you're going to retire early at 55, 30 years, then add 30 years, that's 85. Life is long to not be creating or doing or contributing in some way. I can barely remember what I was doing when I was 25, and to think ahead for that period of time and think, “oh, you know, I'm just going to travel till I die.” That's a lot of traveling. And what I hear from financial planners too, other financial planners, is people tend to talk about traveling, and within two to three years, meh, the luster of travel sort of wanes and they kind of go, “Yeah, I'm... I mean, the pandemic certainly squashed that. But even prior to the pandemic there's a shelf life to that thrill for many people. I'm not saying that’s true for all people, but for many people. And I'm sure you've seen that.
Glory Gray 21:20
Absolutely. When they're in their late 70s I think they certainly find many, many new things to do but it doesn't always include traveling. And I was just talking with a gentleman who is in his late 80s, and he's doing all kinds of things. He's taking groups kayaking, camping overnight in these faraway rustic places. And he didn't even start any of this until he was done traveling and was in his late 70s.
Stefa Katamay 21:50
That's awesome.
Glory Gray 21:51
Yeah, and so it's like you said, I mean, if you're counting from 55 to 85, I'm starting to see I'm sure you are too, that that's a long time. And then there's all the work after that, that still needs to be done! 85-year-olds are just so much younger than they were. I can never tell how old anybody is anymore.
Stefa Katamay 22:11
Me neither. I cycle with a group where our oldest rider is 85, and it's quite inspiring.
Glory Gray 22:20
So, you must meet such interesting people. What can people expect when they're working with you? Walk me through.
Stefa Katamay 22:28
So, in the coaching process, it's really all about you. And people are coming to me, I would say there are four things: they want to stop something, do more of something, transition into something or consider some options. And all of my clients are either looking ahead to retirement, or they've, they have retired and then are kind of going hmmm. Help!
Glory Gray 22:56
Let's backtrack and redo.
Stefa Katamay 22:58
Yeah, a little bit of backtrack and redo or backtrack and refine. So, the coaching process is you come to me with, this is the thing that I'm having difficulty moving forward with. We work together to identify, to get clear on what is the outcome that you're hoping to achieve. And then we go through a lot of discovery. So it's not me offering advice. It's discovering within you. What are your values? What's important to you? What are your strengths? And I give people exercises to help them realize all of that. And all of that discovery informs how you are going to get from where you are today to where you are later. And there's a strategy developing process too. It sounds airy, kind of airy fairy, you know, “All the answers lie within you.” And really they do, and they, they come out with, I'll say the right questions. And it just helps people clear the way too. You know, “this is in my way. That's in my way,” and in some instances it's people just not knowing. And in those instances, I will refer people to resources, say about retirement, say about making decisions, and then we'll keep working together. It's not counseling, it's not therapy. Coaching is very forward looking, it's “Where am I now, where do I want to be, and how do I get there?”
My shortest coaching offer is three sessions. So, say you wanted to come to me for coaching, we'd have a discovery call. It's totally free. You would bring that "This is where I want to be," and even in that free discovery call, we'll go through the whole process, identify what you want. Do the discovery, do some strategizing, clear the way. Get you clear on what you're going to do next. And if you didn't get value in that one hour discovery call, likely you won't come for paid sessions. Generally speaking, people are going like, "Wow! Who knew?" and then sign up for three hours of coaching, spread out over whatever works for you. Generally it's that people are stuck, stuck in their decision, stuck in a mindset, not being sure how to move forward, what is next in life? So we move from stuck to action.
Glory Gray 25:27
It must be so empowering to know that working with you, Stefa, is a safe place for them to be honest with themselves because likely if we don't really know where we are, we're probably not getting to the real gut feeling of where we should be, and going through the process with you must be so empowering.
If I'm someone who says, “I know that I'm lost somehow, there's something not right about where I am in my life, in my plans and my future,” and...not at a psychological level, but at a "What am I going to do with my life?" level, and they really need help just figuring out “what the heck?” Some of us, I imagine we don't know what we don't know. We don't know what is wrong unless we start talking. Can you help someone like that?
Stefa Katamay 26:11
Absolutely. So where I start with almost everybody is doing your values and I have a values exercise. So people go away and rediscover, discover or rediscover, for themselves what’s important to them. Another step that I take people through is, “what are you good at?” And this isn't a skills thing, this isn't about using an Excel spreadsheet. This is about "I'm a compassionate person. I am a powerful speaker," More strengths than skills. And there are tools to assess that.
And another exercise that I help people do, is the life review. You go through the decades of your life, and bring to mind all those moments when you felt you had successes, whether it's home, at work, after work in your recreational pursuits. What is it that made it feel like a success to you? Was it being with people, was it the application of a particular skill, was it what you created, was it about who you impacted? Also, what are those things at any point in time that you kind of thought, “oh, that would be cool, that'd be interesting, but you kind of thought, “maybe that's not for me.” You put that all together. And if that doesn't bring sort of a light of any sort, it's really about looking out into the world, whether it's online or among the people you know, at who inspires you? Who is doing the kinds of things that you would say to yourself, “Wow, I wish I could do that?” Can you? Maybe you can. And that's where coaching per se is really interesting, because it is taking people through a self discovery process. I can't tell you what to do when you're lost, only you can tell you what to do. But it's providing the tools and resources to go through that discovery process, and then through my workshops and through my writing, that's where I put the content of.
Glory Gray 28:27
Yes you do! If anybody isn't following Stefa on LinkedIn, please do, because we have such interesting discussions with so many people about topics that she's put out there, and ideas that she's put out there.
Is there maybe some kind of a free offering that you have for our listeners or can they go to your website and maybe download something interesting that you have?
Stefa Katamay 28:49
So I encourage people to go to my website which is nextinlife.ca and sign up for my newsletter, which only goes out every two months or so. You're not going to be inundated by any stretch of the imagination. And it's in that newsletter that I bring together either book reviews that I've done, experiences that I've seen people having, retelling people's stories and providing a commentary on kind of what to expect as life goes on. I like storytelling because as we hear about other people's stories, we generally see ourselves in some element of it, you know. If somebody was stuck, maybe we'll identify with where they were stuck. If somebody was inspired, maybe we could see a parallel in our own lives and feel inspired.
So, visit the website, see if there's something that resonates for you, and reach out. And the whole business about having a free discovery call, if it's a matter of just getting to know me, that's fine but generally it's really a free coaching call, so bring your problem. And I abide by the international coaching Federation Code of Ethics, so absolutely everything is strictly confidential.
Glory Gray 30:09
And is the website the best place to reach you, Stefa, or are there other ways?
Stefa Katamay 30:13
The website and through LinkedIn at the moment. In September, look for @next.in.life on Instagram, and I'll be pressing through there three times a week.
Glory Gray 30:27
We'll put all those links in the Episode Notes for our listeners. Thank you so much for being with us today, Stefa, sharing this knowledge of yours, and helping us get excited about this next chapter.
Stefa Katamay 30:40
And thank you for having me. And it is absolutely an exciting time of life. Don't ever let anybody tell you you're getting older, you're only getting better.
Glory Gray 30:49
Wise thoughts. Thanks so much, Stefa.
That was Stefa Katamay, and her company is Next in Life. I want to point out that Stefa has no geographical boundaries with her business so whether you're in Halifax, Nova Scotia, or Halifax, West Yorkshire she can help you. You can find her contact info in the show notes.
Have you ever faced a crossroads in your life?. What helped you in your decision? Join the conversation on our Facebook page at @GloryGrayWealthSolutions and share your thoughts with us.
What is the one question you always wanted to know about money but we're afraid to ask? Email us at Hello@womenswealth.ca with your question, and we may feature your question in a future episode.
Want to read this episode later in the text version? You'll find transcripts on our blog at WomensWealthCanada.com.
Until next time, this is Glory Gray, your personal trainer for financial fitness, telling you to take charge of your finances, plan for the future, but most of all, enjoy today, and bye for now.
Announcer 32:04
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